Ez Robot At Intel Idf16

Question

As in tomorrow? Fellas a little heads up on these huge announcements.. I would have flown down to see this!

DJ Sures · Answer

Lol - apologies but it wasn't public info to share until now. I really wanted to - but we have been working really hard on something that will be announced tomorrow as a proof of concept (POC). I can't say anymore just yet... Ps, it's tues, wed, thurs

fxrtst · Answer

Well just reading the news feed has me super excited can't wait for an announcement! Good luck guys!

DJ Sures · Answer

Thanks! Stay tuned

fxrtst · Answer

Oh I will

kamaroman68 · Answer

Can anyone confirm that anybody can attend this event? I am lucky enough to be in San Francisco on Thursday at approx noon. I would like to stop in and see and possibly meet ez robot folks. The idf website says "sold out". Thanks guys! Chris

fxrtst · Answer

Oh the pain!...how long much I wait?! Any ETA on official announcement?

69developer · Answer

Watch the twitter feed, it was announced just a little bit ago. Looks interesting!

ptp · Answer

@Will, I just finished watching the IDF session, and based in what intel release i can guess some ideas: 1) Intel Realsense cameras integration with ARC.to provide navigation, and person detection, one demo idea can be a follow me robot. 2) New hardware footprint (similar to a Raspberry PI 3) to run Windows 10 and ARC.

ptp · Answer

thanks for the twitter tip... i was close.

fxrtst · Answer

Ok that's huge news. If I understand: I see a v5 EZB with a USB port.. Yay! I see the new Intel Joule kit. Looks like the EZB and Joules will bring portable computing to our robots! Can anyone say what size that footprint is for joule and its price tag? When will the EZB 5 be available. Can you tell us more about its specs?

Dunning-Kruger · Answer

@fxrtst I would so love to get excited (because any of this would be a serious boon for my ongoing inMoov project) but will any of this actually come to fruition before I die LOL?.... Not trying to be negative here but after all we are still waiting on the release of a host of other new products that most were announced well over a year ago...

ptp · Answer

Will, Regarding the Intel Joule platform: I got the Yay feeling and then i got a Nay.... product sheet: https://newsroom.intel.com/newsroom/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2016/08/intel-joule-fact-sheet.pdf Quote: The Intel Joule 570x platform features: High-performance, 64-bit, 1.7 GHz quad-core Intel trademark Atom T5700 processor with burst up to 2.4 GHz 4GB LPDDR4 RAM and 16GB eMMC memory Intel trademark HD Graphics with 4K video capture and display 802.11ac Wi-Fi with MIMO and Bluetooth 4.1 USB 3.0, MPI* CSI and DSI interfaces, and multiple GPIO, I2C, UART interfaces Linux-based OS tailored for IoT and smart devices Enhanced support for the Intel RealSense cameras and libraries  cost is $400: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Intel/GTPDKW/?qs=%2fha2pyFaduiiCJ239IsQQajAbQTa7IiAkVfmkXBNJIM%3d Quote: The Intel Joule 550x platform features: High-performance, 64-bit, 1.5 GHz quad-core Intel trademark Atom T5500 processor 3GB LPDDR4 RAM and 8GB eMMC memory Intel trademark HD Graphics with 4K video capture and display 802.11ac Wi-Fi with MIMO and Bluetooth 4.1 USB 3.0, MPI CSI and DSI interfaces, and multiple GPIO, I2C, UART interfaces Linux-based OS tailored for IoT and smart devices Support for the Intel RealSense cameras and libraries  For $400 you don't get any sensor (cameras). They mentioned Linux & Windows 10 IOT (runs also in Raspberry PI 3) the specs are good why not a full windows 10 version ? Currently i use the Intel NUC in a big BOT, from a price perspective i don't see big save.

ptp · Answer

i'm keeping the Yay feeling for the EZB 5, so far from the pictures: it's based on Joule platform, windows 10 IOT i see a USB, i see the external antennas, video port.... Let's keep the fingers crossed.

Dunning-Kruger · Answer

@ptp... where are you seeing the info on the EZB5? Still looking for it... Thanks

fxrtst · Answer

Richard it's in the Twitter feed. The pic of EZB 5 is there.

ptp · Answer

https://twitter.com/ez_robot    same antennas...

Dunning-Kruger · Answer

Thanks @fxrtst and @ptp... found it... Green board means prototype... cool

CochranRobotics · Answer

I believe the slot to beside the USB is an SDCard. I am sure it will run full Windows 10. It is based on the Atom which could run Windows 10. Intel is pushing hard to be in the IoT world so that is what they will advertise initially.

I guess it could be video out, but, I am sure that we will get more information before too long.

CochranRobotics · Answer

Looks like many be video from what I saw in the next picture.

Jeremie · Answer

The connector mounted under the top board and next to the USB is a mini HDMI port

CochranRobotics · Answer

Yep, the picture posted later sure looked like it. Thank you for the verification Jeremy!

fxrtst · Answer

Safe to assume that the Joule sits pretty under the EZB? I see the antenna coming out there. That's a nice size if that's it.

Jeremie · Answer

Yeah we lucked out that the Joule just fit between the headers on the lower board It was meant to be!

fxrtst · Answer

It was indeed!

dinesh · Answer

nice guys hats of for your hard work

DJ Sures · Answer

Thanks everyone - it's a POC which is proof of concept. There are no immediate plans for manufacturing at this time. The v5 POC does run Windows 10 iot and a full Windows 10 optionally as well. So yes, a full ARC install would be an option. However, heat is a significant challenge... As well as power consumption and boot up time, presently. there's also the price, even for manufacturers - so that's presently a show stopper as well, as you may have seen in the media. I'm confident the price will come down and possibly make the v5 a reality. In the meantime, the /2 begins shipping very soon (I believe next month but don't quote me on that as I haven't received final updates). The Intel and Microsoft partnership will go a long way to continue to grow ezrobot. The conference was a lot of fun, and we met some great people. It's unfortunate that ezrobots were performing more functionally than any other product being demo'd and we received the least media from Intel. And they spelt our name wrong as "easy robot" in the press releases. Which is disappointing as ez-robot's display drew the largest crowd at the show - with dancing and vision capable robots... I'd rate the conference 6 out of 10. Specifically since Intel really dropped the ball on recognizing the major efforts and achievements ezrobot managed: 1) ezrobot having the first carrier board, 2) ezrobot having the most functional demo, 3) ezrobot having a production quality product to demo, 4) spelling our name wrong in press releases, 5) doing it all in 4 weeks The v5 POC was a fun project for our team, but now it's back to the real world - doing what we do best

fxrtst · Answer

Well done guys. Not cool at all that Intel dropped the ball on a company name. They are right up the street, should I go knock on their door, deliver a knuckle sandwich ?! Hopefully the v5 is in development if even a year or two away. I'm looking forward to the /2 board and all the other bits as I work on Alan v2 and his girlfriend Alena. They could both use all the upgrades! The price tag on the Joule seems a bit high, plus the heat and other issues you pointed out seems like it may be a few more years away to make them usable. On that note I have one of those PIPO computers from China for 100 bucks and its impressive what you get for the money, touch screen, small foot print and window and android os. I'll be grabbing a lot more of these. Anyway as you said, work as usual. Do what you guys do best!

Dunning-Kruger · Answer

@fxrtst Alan v2? Very interesting... that sounds frickin' awesome, dude.... @DJ We are chomping at the bit (me especially for the IOTiny) for those new EZ Robot products.... I have big plans for my inMoov that will make my previous video look like it was done with lil' ole arduini's... I will go as so far to say what I want to do may make the ROS guys sit up and take notice... well, maybe... LOL...Give us those new products and us DIY guys get Intel's attention for you.... I know Bob is working on something interesting for his inMoov too... Stay tuned...

DJ Sures · Answer

The IoTiny should be for sale any day now - i have 20 of them here that i'm using to test with around the cabin. The only one we're struggling with is the inverted pendulum still. We can get it to work for small robots - but the equations for a large robot aren't compatible due to the significant difference in motors, encoders and power. All other products should be on the website any day as well - they've all passed our production tests and now ready for the store. If i had to guess, i'd say you'd see almost everything appear before the month of september (even the v2)

fxrtst · Answer

That would be great! My money is standing by. Don't sweat the inverted pendulum.. You have plenty of other awesome products coming out!

Dave Schulpius · Answer

Oh Man! Cool!. I'll send you cash for one of the Tiny's you have there. I have my B9's brain laid open right now waiting for me to install one of these little wonders. I'll be watching the store. Hopefully I'll be one of the lucky ones to buy one befor they sell out. I'm just as jazzed for the V5! eek

fxrtst · Answer

mhm what he said....20 sure is alot to experiment with. Such a small cabin and such a burden all those tiny IO's taking up space.....

Dunning-Kruger · Answer

@DJ Thanks.... I know us DIY guys are a pain in the a**. We appreciate what you do and what you have to do now with the business.... I know in the long run the DIY community isn't where ez robot's needed growth will be. However, we are still committed to all things ez robot and if we can help you (ez robot) in anyway just let us know. I guess all we ask is for you to continue to throw us a "bone" once in awhile as you always have done in the past...

dinesh · Answer

what about rasberry pi with ezb like intel joule it can run windows etc and it less price even though rasberry pi is 35 dollars or rasberry pi zero 5 dollars is that correct idea confused confused confused confused

DJ Sures · Answer

Raspberry pi is an arm based and not the same as joule at all - there's not even a comparison because it's an entire different architecture. Raspberry pi cannot run Windows, it runs windows iot. You can find more information on the internet about raspberry pi if you wish. There will never be a raspberry pi ezb. Besides, the form factory will never ever work. Diy community isn't a source of revenue, that's understood. However, it's a source of friendship and ideas and mutual technological perspectives - which makes it a valuable asset which will not be overlooked, and never has. Additionally, the diy community is education as well - you all knew very little before and now you know a lot more - ezrobot has been an educational product since day one, nothing has changed. Any product that helps you grow and build something is an educational product - make magazine is an educational magazine. Instructables is an educational website service. Everything that teaches you is educational - calling it diy is a synonym, except calling it an educational platform actually produces sales in the industry. So yes, the focus is still diy education - nothing has changed. Refining a product and having it actually work as committed/advertised is what matters to me and why ezrobot succeeds. Sure it may take a little more time, or you can buy an arduino and figure it out on your own - either way, ezrobot's products were always work and provide the quality that you won't find anywhere else. Which is why anyone that tries to leave, comes back... The v5 POC is a proof of concept - sure one day something like that is the goal. Maybe sooner than later. But until it is, the v5 is POC - I can't repeat that any more without sounding like a broken record. What you all want from the v5 isn't going to make you very happy at the moment. The v5 POC takes for ever to boot up, because it's a real operating system. It uses a tremendous amount of current, and you're always going to need some form of display anyway to monitor/program/tweak/interact with the robot.... I still believe the best option is a gear best mini PC over wifi.

Dave Schulpius · Answer

Wow, DJ, thanks for the insight and the thoughts on the V5 and how the DIY people may feel about it. It helps me to decide my direction. However I'm still going to get a few when they are available. It's great to hear us DIY people are still a part of your concept. I've always understood why EZ Robot went the Revolution route. Gotta grow, gotta expand, gotta explore, gotta keep paying the bills. Also one of the things I've learned about you over these past years is that you're really concerned and get a kick out of teaching people and helping them to learn new things. The world is a better place because of you. I know mine is. I know that DIY is all you mention in your above post. However it also a source of revenue. Not as large as Revolution but still a source and any income source is good. DIY guys not only buy the individual parts but I bet most of us also buy the Revolution robots also. If not for us then as gifts or learning tools. I bought a Revolution Six for a young family member who is trying to find a direction in life and whose only real interest is learning something about electronics. Who knows, maybe that little spider will save his life. Thanks for your vision and passion DJ.

Dunning-Kruger · Answer

@DJ The V5 sounded absolutely awesome... Squeezing a windows 10 pc into the form factor of an ezb was just so cool (way to go Jeremie )... With what you just said however (and upon reflection), the way we have it now is so much more convenient.... Since the EZB4/2 is so much more stable over wifi (not that the regular EZB4 wasn't), it makes an on-board computer only relevant in certain circumstances (like an outdoor robot or finished software version project). For me a fast laptop with a large hi-res display is an ideal mobile and non-mobile platform for ARC. It's the best of both worlds... At one point I thought about putting an on-board PC in my inMoov (actually until just recently), but the lack of keyboard and mouse would make it more frustrating to update his software on the fly, which I tend to do a lot of....

DJ Sures · Answer

Long as you understand that diy and education are synonyms. There will always be individual components and the iotiny, for example. I see everything ezrobot has ever done as educational - without growth we stand still... And that's not living For the onboard PC - the /2 has a serial port option for direct connection. You do lose the camera port, but that's irrelevant because an onboard pc has USB for a camera anyway. The /2 simply requires a firmware update for that feature. There's also a mic update for the /2 and IoTiny as well that I'm working on.

ptp · Answer

Mixed signals... Intel Robotic Kit (Preorder): https://software.intel.com/en-us/realsense/robotic-devkit The Kit (Cpu Board + Camera) = $249, if we remove the camera the CPU board cost is $150. Board specs Quote: Dimensions: 3.37 in x 2.22 in / 85.60 mm x 56.5 mm Processor: Intel trademark Atom Processor x5-Z8350 Graphics: Intel trademark HD Graphics Camera interface: CSI (4 megapixel) Expansion: 40-pin general purpose bus, supported by Altera* Real-time-clock (RTC): Yes Power: 5V DC-in at 3A 5.5/2.1 mm jack Memory: 4 GB DDR3L-1600 Storage capacity: 32 GB eMMC Compatible operating system: Linux*, Ubuntu* USB 2.0: 4 x UB 2.0, 2 x USB 2.0 pin header (10 pins total) USB 3.0: 1 x UB 3.0 OTG Ethernet: 1 x Gb Ethernet (full speed) RJ-45 Display interface: DSI/ eDP Video and audio: HDMI 1.4b, I2S audio port  vs Joule Board Kit $400 I don't understand... Two boards competing in the same space ? Isn't the Joule Atom's replacement ?

CochranRobotics · Answer

yep and agree that the price point is jacked up right now.

DJ Sures · Answer

Check the specs of the joule - it is an atom as well.

DJ Sures · Answer

Here's a link from the our news feed: https://newsroom.intel.com/newsroom/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2016/08/intel-joule-fact-sheet.pdf

fxrtst · Answer

..that is strange...BTW @JD did a higher resolution camera get developed? If so will it be released in this next batch of bits?

DJ Sures · Answer

With embedded pcs, there's no need for ezrobot to invest effort to create a new camera when there's an infinite selection of USB cameras. Also, ezrobot will be looking into Intel real sense cameras shortly - no timeline. There's lots of stuff in the hopper at the moment and we want to get that out onto the store first.

fxrtst · Answer

Ok great to know! Makes a lot of since, I believe it was a year ago or more that I remembered seeing post. Technology moves faster then concepts!

fxrtst · Answer

Went to a mall and Intel had set up a "booth" where they showed off the camera and several different uses for the technology. I wonder if it uses the same TOF time of flight technology that the Kinect uses. Edit just looked it up...uses pretty much the same tech as the prime sense (discontinued) camera I used for my motion capture video. Uses TOF, projector IR

ptp · Answer

It seems the dream last then a year.... INTEL DISCONTINUES JOULE, GALILEO, AND EDISON PRODUCT LINES https://hackaday.com/2017/06/19/intel-discontinues-joule-galileo-and-edison-product-lines/ https://www.electronicdesign.com/embedded-revolution/intel-amputate-three-modules-internet-things-including-joule it seems small & cheap arm boards are the long term options.

DJ Sures · Answer

It'll still happen, with a PC onboard... someday. There's no immediate need for it today. It just won't happen with Intel - or, maybe it will with ATOM? Intel seems to be moving away from IoT, which is a smart move considering ARM has a significant market share. I don't think anyone can compete with ARM for distributed low cost processing. Intel lost the CPU race recently to AMD, only because Intel will be late to the market. AMD isn't focusing on server application, which won't hurt Intel very much. Intel is incredibly strong in server CPU, and I don't think anyone can take that away from them. Intel's core focus in the late 70's and early 80's was promoting hobbyist and inventors with their products. That department (MIG) is being dismantled it appears. It's a shame, because they did make pretty big bad decisions for their MIG focus. I stand by my observation that Intel dropped the ball on engaging and supporting the correct startups - plus, their infrastructure is so large that low cost products don't keep the lights on. Intel would have to streamline to operate as effective as ARM, which means significant layoffs and that would play havoc with their investors. Other companies, such as Broadcom, ST Micro, etc. have historically only offered low cost products. So their infrastructure was built to be supported by low cost offerings. That is the opposite of Intel, who's infrastructure evolved from high cost cpu sales. This positions other chip manufacturers (Broadcom, STM) to still licence ARM and sell low cost without affecting their infrastructure. x86 isn't more expensive to manufacturer, it's the Intel's infrastructure that can't support lowing the cost of it. This thread that you replied to is a great example. EZ-Robot was the only product ready to ship which included a Joule. We did put a great deal of effort to work with Intel to include the Joule in an EZ-Robot. Their pushback came in logistic and pricing challenges. Also, there was absolutely zero support from the Intel contacts we had. Email replies with simple requests would take 7-10 days. Even today, when we talk to Intel it can take weeks for a response. Most departments don't respond to us at all anymore. EZ-Robot's tech is so advanced and unique, it steps on a lot of toes. Specifically for those who have made investments in less capable technologies. That doesn't mean we're going to apologize for being better. Either way, the more these companies turn their back to EZ-Robot's direction, the more room they make for us to succeed.

Dunning-Kruger · Answer

@DJ... After reading what you wrote, does EZ Robot have a plan B then for future ezb/ARC advancements?

CochranRobotics · Answer

microsoft is working on an Arm based version of Windows 10 using the snapdragon 835.

thetechguru · Answer

I can speak a bit to Microsoft culture, as I worked closely with them on some projects in my last job, and know a number of people who still do. Every Microsoft employee needs to re-apply for their own job every year (I think it is yearly, might even be more often). This is supposed to make people who want to stay perform at their highest level, and encourage those who don't like their jobs to move on, but in reality, it makes many of them very risk averse, and constantly looking for other opportunities. We saw the same kind of thing that DJ does. Slow, incomplete responses, and on long projects, we would have no continuity because the people we were working with would change so often. Alan

DJ Sures · Answer

Of course Joule was abandoned by ez-robot in August 2016 when the pricing was announced at IDF16. FYI, there will not be any more IDF (Intel Developer Forum), as it appears Intel has ceased business practice of supporting new emerging technologies outside of server CPUs. This is only a guess, but I'm suspecting a chip manufacturer will produce an x86 hardware emulated ARM, that will support Microsoft Windows. I can't see Microsoft getting much traction convincing software developers (new and old) to have a ARM and x86 compile. So Microsoft is most likely not going to change architecture anytime soon. However, there have been successes with chip manufacturing emulating x86: https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3011638/qualcomm-responds-to-intels-rant-about-x86-emulation-on-arm Then if you bring up Linux and ARM... well, that's a whole new and HUGE discussion. Specific question is "How can Linux become a consumer/user OS when it is written and designed by engineers?" You have to remember, Linux has a bizarre dual personality. 99 out of 100 installs are server based, and the minuet rest are pro-sumers dabbling at home. No Linux users are my mom, your uncle or neighbor. The fact that Linux doesn't have the expertise or community focused on consumer usage. Even if one organization stood up and said "I'll own consumer usage", it has to be built on a kabillion non-consumer technologies. It's those non-consumer technologies that breaks the Linux system for user usage. This by no means says that linux is bad, it's just differently focused. Okay, so now you're thinking "What about NextStep?". I mean, come on DJ, Apple turned NextStep into MacOS, can't linux do the same? Well, my previous answer still applies. Steve Jobs did not develop Next to be a server. The focus was ALWAYS software development and apps. Absorbing Next into MacOS was still a struggle, however... and ask any MacOS user that wants to install anything "abnormal" outside of Apple's desired use case. It's a nitemare! What kind of nitemare? Well, you're not going to lose sleep over it. But my most recent experience is with MS Visual Studio and Xamarin on MacOS. There are files installed in locations outside of your usual Finder Documents, which means you're in the Terminal often to locate stuff. While it's okay for someone like me, I have friends who just can't do it. One of my friends is a professional photographer. He's been a Mac user for ages. Recently he switched to windows because there's tools he can't get on Mac. Also, the tools he does find on Mac require editing config files and such, sound familiar? Yeah... like linux! Well, why does Linux have so many config files and not enough GUIs? That's simple, because the development of a GUI suuuucks in Linux because developer tools are complicated and commandline in linux. Also, it's an OS made by engineers and university level programmers, who don't understand why a GUI matters. "What do you mean you need a GUI? Just open terminal, CD into folder, VIM the file, edit it with VIM shortcut keys, :wq! to save, ensure your CHMOD permissions are set, and voila!" - says the Linux user Why a rant about linux? It's not that i dislike linux, remember, i developed for linux for YEARS and was a huge contributed to GNU and even had a GNU.NET email address back in the day. Fact is, i'm consumer focused now, and linux just doesn't do it. Will ARC ever run on Linux? Hopefully one day, but that's up to Linux not EZ-Robot

CochranRobotics · Answer

Microsoft is building in the emulation into Windows 10 for ARM. https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2017/P4171 6:13 to the end of the video basically. https://www.howtogeek.com/309119/what-is-windows-10-on-arm-and-how-is-it-different-from-windows-rt/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/12/microsofts_windows_10_armtwist_comes_closer_with_first_demonstration/ Lots of articles about it. The good news is that x86 code will run without needing a separate compiler. I discussed this a few weeks back on the Tech Today show.

DJ Sures · Answer

Now that is fantastic news!

faengelm · Answer

@CochranRobotics I think I read that the ARM based emulator will only support apps from the widows store, but I maybe be getting that confused with Windows 10s restrictions @dj Can ARC for Windows become a Windows Store App? Frank

faengelm · Answer

Whoops, my bad, the emulator on ARM does run full Windows 10 But, windows 10s which is aimed at schools is windows store apps only.. so no ARC on those systems unless it can become a windows store app

ptp · Answer

*** I missed DJ's post *** The emulation is a nice idea... the last company tried something like that closed doors due patent litigation's with Intel. Intel to Qualcomm and Microsoft: Nice x86 emulation you've got there, shame if it got sued into oblivion: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/09/intel_sends_arm_a_shot_across_bow/ I'll wait to see if is not another flop... two things: 1) performance impact 2) Invisible costs. Instead of building a native ARM core like Linux they picked the easy road (hardware emulation). If Qualcomm enters a fight with Intel, the prices will go up, and the costs will be distributed over the windows ecosystem, so more turbulence.

faengelm · Answer

@ptp Good points... also looks like ARM drivers will be requited https://www.howtogeek.com/309119/what-is-windows-10-on-arm-and-how-is-it-different-from-windows-rt/

CochranRobotics · Answer

you can upgrade to pro for $50.00 on it. I think it will work fine from all of the research I have done. You have to realize that you are not replacing a laptop or desktop. It is a single purpose device. Strip out all of the junk on windows by turning unneeded garbage off and it will work fine. I think it would run as well if not better than a latte panda and I have one of those working well attached to a couple of EZ-B's.

DJ Sures · Answer

Asking ARC to be an AppStore app is like asking visual studio or autodesk to be an AppStore app. An AppStore app is small little app. ARC is a huge giant application with many libraries and plugins and stuff. Would you ask autodesk to make their cad program an app? Of course not. ARC is a massive giant huge beast. It is NOT an app, it's a software and library suite. We tried to use the centennial app creator for ARC last year, but it just won't work because there's too many dependencies. I don't know why Microsoft is trying to make apps like that. Real software programs like ARC, autodesk, solidworks, visual studio, office, etc.... can't be "apps".

CochranRobotics · Answer

Right. Watch the video I posted. It shows Adobe photoshop running pretty well on it. This isnt an app either but full blown photoshop. It also shows windows 10 enterprise running on the snapdragon. Can even join a domain. There is a lot of bad speculation in articles. These were all debunked multiple times by Microsoft at multiple events.

CochranRobotics · Answer

@PTP I think this is why Microsoft is building a software emulation layer and not Qualcomm. Intel doesnt have a software emulation layer that is protected. As far as speed, that remains to be seen. Time will tell.

DJ Sures · Answer

It's unusual to see Microsoft trying to make their operating system controlled by app installations like an iPhone. I take it their incentive for releasing windows 10 for free was to make money from AppStore sales. The thing is, that's a model for phones and tablets - and, I might add, something microsoft did terribly at with windows phone anyway. Realizing and exercising the strengths of their operating system should be their focus, imo. Rather than saying "hey apple and android are making money off a closed AppStore model, so should we".... what they should say is "wow, our eco system is open and our AppStore model should reflect that" So, what I mean by that is Microsoft offering an AppStore but letting it manage REAL programs, not app containers. The app container limits the functionality of the app sooooo much that i might as well be using an iPhone or android tablet. Aka, microsoft - don't turn a powerful PC into a phone! How do they do that? Simple actually. Allow MSI installers to be added to the AppStore. Allow the AppStore to manage installation and removal of msi's. Who ever thought Microsoft should copy a phone or tablet for software installation? Ugh

CochranRobotics · Answer

I believe that their release will be Windows 10 S. EDIT I believe that the release of Windows 10 on ARM will be Windows 10 S. End of Edit This can be upgraded to Windows 10 Pro. Once at Pro, the restriction to apps goes away and you would be able to install programs. This is from my research a month ago. We will have to see if this is the case when and if these are released later this year or next year.

DJ Sures · Answer

Windows 10s is out now. According to their documentation, you are promoted to upgrade when a regular application is attempted to be installed. This means trying to install ARC will prompt to upgrade windows pro. Why they upgrade to pro and not home was a mystery until now. It's because pro unlocks the virtualization features of the operating system. Home has no virtualization.

CochranRobotics · Answer

Right and pro would also be good because you can RDP into the device which isnt an option without additional software on Home.

faengelm · Answer

Here is an article on the differences between Windows 10s and Windows 10 on ARM https://www.techradar.com/news/a-closer-look-at-windows-10-s-windows-10-on-arm-and-windows-10-iot#

DJ Sures · Answer

Frank - that's a fantastic article. Thanks for sharing! I'm having trouble understanding this paragraph.. It says there is one restriction, but i don't seem to see the restriction in the paragraph.... Quote: Windows 10 running on ARM processors will be very much like Windows 10 itself, with only one main restriction. You’ll be able to run apps from the Windows Store on Windows on ARM, but you’ll also be able to run Win32 apps - whether they come from the Windows Store because they’ve been packaged with the Desktop Bridge tool, or whether you download them from the web at large and install them as normal desktop apps.  Am i reading this wrong? What's the restriction? Quote: Confusingly, Microsoft and Qualcomm are simply calling this Windows 10’. What you get is Windows 10, with the Windows 10 desktop, but it’s Windows 10 running on ARM rather than on an Intel or AMD CPU. In practice, the only difference will be that 64-bit desktop software won’t run on these devices.  Good news here - because ARC is 32bit Quote: "Just because an app’ comes from the Windows Store does not automatically mean it’s safe and suitable for running on Windows 10 S," explained senior program manager Rich Turner. Similarly, converted apps that generate code and write it to disk "won’t run properly on systems running Windows 10 S". So Minecraft will work, but a developer tool like Visual Studio won’t.  That's why ARC cannot be an app for Windows 10 S

faengelm · Answer

@dj I think the problem is that the author did not state the restriction until the next paragraph... i.e. no x64 software Quote: Windows 10 running on ARM processors will be very much like Windows 10 itself, with only one main restriction. You’ll be able to run apps from the Windows Store on Windows on ARM, but you’ll also be able to run Win32 apps - whether they come from the Windows Store because they’ve been packaged with the Desktop Bridge tool, or whether you download them from the web at large and install them as normal desktop apps. Windows on ARM has a built-in emulator for 32-bit apps that’s based on the Windows on Windows (WOW) technology that Windows 10 uses to run 32-bit (x86) software on 64-bit (x64) PCs. The real-time Just-In-Time’ transcoding emulation that converts x86 instructions to ARM is done the first time you run the software, and then it’s cached by Windows - so the next time you run the software, you’re running the ARM64 version of the code that was created on-the-fly the first time, making it run without significant lag or delay.  Which, as you stated, not an issue for ARC... great news

CardboardHacker · Answer

So ARC on an arm based system seems like a possibility with win10 ARM. Good to here for those trying to put Raspberry pi's in there robots!

DJ Sures · Answer

I doubt raspberry pi will be a target for windows 10. It's super underpowered. I believe the instruction set that snap dragon uses for microsofts arm emulation has more hardware instructions for emulation than Broadcom'a chips. Many companies license the arm instruction set, but also add to it. I believe that's why snapdragon leads performance in arm cpus. Have you tried an x86 emulator on a pi running windows? If you shut down all host OS services, I wonder how it performs

DJ Sures · Answer

Doesn't look like you have a lot of options. But some virtualization can be assisted by isolating a core: https://blog.flexvdi.com/2015/03/17/enabling-kvm-virtualization-on-the-raspberry-pi-2/ Out of the box, doesn't seem the pi kernel has any kvm optimization.

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