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@CochranRobotics I think I read that the ARM based emulator will only support apps from the widows store, but I maybe be getting that confused with Windows 10s restrictions
@dj Can ARC for Windows become a Windows Store App?
I'll wait to see if is not another flop... two things:
1) performance impact
2) Invisible costs. Instead of building a native ARM core like Linux they picked the easy road (hardware emulation). If Qualcomm enters a fight with Intel, the prices will go up, and the costs will be distributed over the windows ecosystem, so more turbulence.
I think it will work fine from all of the research I have done. You have to realize that you are not replacing a laptop or desktop. It is a single purpose device. Strip out all of the junk on windows by turning unneeded garbage off and it will work fine. I think it would run as well if not better than a latte panda and I have one of those working well attached to a couple of EZ-B's.
Asking ARC to be an AppStore app is like asking visual studio or autodesk to be an AppStore app. An AppStore app is small little app. ARC is a huge giant application with many libraries and plugins and stuff.
Would you ask autodesk to make their cad program an app? Of course not. ARC is a massive giant huge beast. It is NOT an app, it's a software and library suite.
We tried to use the centennial app creator for ARC last year, but it just won't work because there's too many dependencies. I don't know why Microsoft is trying to make apps like that.
Real software programs like ARC, autodesk, solidworks, visual studio, office, etc.... can't be "apps".
Right. Watch the video I posted. It shows Adobe photoshop running pretty well on it. This isnt an app either but full blown photoshop. It also shows windows 10 enterprise running on the snapdragon. Can even join a domain.
There is a lot of bad speculation in articles. These were all debunked multiple times by Microsoft at multiple events.
It's unusual to see Microsoft trying to make their operating system controlled by app installations like an iPhone. I take it their incentive for releasing windows 10 for free was to make money from AppStore sales. The thing is, that's a model for phones and tablets - and, I might add, something microsoft did terribly at with windows phone anyway.
Realizing and exercising the strengths of their operating system should be their focus, imo. Rather than saying "hey apple and android are making money off a closed AppStore model, so should we".... what they should say is "wow, our eco system is open and our AppStore model should reflect that"
So, what I mean by that is Microsoft offering an AppStore but letting it manage REAL programs, not app containers. The app container limits the functionality of the app sooooo much that i might as well be using an iPhone or android tablet.
Aka, microsoft - don't turn a powerful PC into a phone!
How do they do that? Simple actually. Allow MSI installers to be added to the AppStore. Allow the AppStore to manage installation and removal of msi's.
Who ever thought Microsoft should copy a phone or tablet for software installation? Ugh
I believe that their release will be Windows 10 S. **EDIT** I believe that the release of Windows 10 on ARM will be Windows 10 S. **End of Edit**
This can be upgraded to Windows 10 Pro. Once at Pro, the restriction to apps goes away and you would be able to install programs. This is from my research a month ago. We will have to see if this is the case when and if these are released later this year or next year.
Windows 10s is out now. According to their documentation, you are promoted to upgrade when a regular application is attempted to be installed. This means trying to install ARC will prompt to upgrade windows pro.
Why they upgrade to pro and not home was a mystery until now. It's because pro unlocks the virtualization features of the operating system.
Frank - that's a fantastic article. Thanks for sharing!
I'm having trouble understanding this paragraph.. It says there is one restriction, but i don't seem to see the restriction in the paragraph....
Quote:
Windows 10 running on ARM processors will be very much like Windows 10 itself, with only one main restriction. You’ll be able to run apps from the Windows Store on Windows on ARM, but you’ll also be able to run Win32 apps whether they come from the Windows Store because they’ve been packaged with the Desktop Bridge tool, or whether you download them from the web at large and install them as normal desktop apps.
Am i reading this wrong? What's the restriction?
Quote:
Confusingly, Microsoft and Qualcomm are simply calling this Windows 10’. What you get is Windows 10, with the Windows 10 desktop, but it’s Windows 10 running on ARM rather than on an Intel or AMD CPU. In practice, the only difference will be that 64-bit desktop software won’t run on these devices.
Just because an app’ comes from the Windows Store does not automatically mean it’s safe and suitable for running on Windows 10 S, explained senior program manager Rich Turner. Similarly, converted apps that generate code and write it to disk won’t run properly on systems running Windows 10 S. So Minecraft will work, but a developer tool like Visual Studio won’t.
@dj I think the problem is that the author did not state the restriction until the next paragraph... i.e. no x64 software
Quote:
Windows 10 running on ARM processors will be very much like Windows 10 itself, with only one main restriction. You’ll be able to run apps from the Windows Store on Windows on ARM, but you’ll also be able to run Win32 apps whether they come from the Windows Store because they’ve been packaged with the Desktop Bridge tool, or whether you download them from the web at large and install them as normal desktop apps.
Windows on ARM has a built-in emulator for 32-bit apps that’s based on the Windows on Windows (WOW) technology that Windows 10 uses to run 32-bit (x86) software on 64-bit (x64) PCs. The real-time Just-In-Time’ transcoding emulation that converts x86 instructions to ARM is done the first time you run the software, and then it’s cached by Windows so the next time you run the software, you’re running the ARM64 version of the code that was created on-the-fly the first time, making it run without significant lag or delay.
Which, as you stated, not an issue for ARC... great news
I doubt raspberry pi will be a target for windows 10. It's super underpowered. I believe the instruction set that snap dragon uses for microsofts arm emulation has more hardware instructions for emulation than Broadcom'a chips. Many companies license the arm instruction set, but also add to it. I believe that's why snapdragon leads performance in arm cpus.
Have you tried an x86 emulator on a pi running windows? If you shut down all host OS services, I wonder how it performs
https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2017/P4171
6:13 to the end of the video basically.
https://www.howtogeek.com/309119/what-is-windows-10-on-arm-and-how-is-it-different-from-windows-rt/
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/12/microsofts_windows_10_armtwist_comes_closer_with_first_demonstration/
Lots of articles about it. The good news is that x86 code will run without needing a separate compiler.
I discussed this a few weeks back on the Tech Today show.
I think I read that the ARM based emulator will only support apps from the widows store, but I maybe be getting that confused with Windows 10s restrictions
@dj
Can ARC for Windows become a Windows Store App?
Frank
But, windows 10s which is aimed at schools is windows store apps only.. so no ARC on those systems unless it can become a windows store app
The emulation is a nice idea... the last company tried something like that closed doors due patent litigation's with Intel.
Intel to Qualcomm and Microsoft: Nice x86 emulation you've got there, shame if it got sued into oblivion:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/09/intel_sends_arm_a_shot_across_bow/
I'll wait to see if is not another flop... two things:
1) performance impact
2) Invisible costs. Instead of building a native ARM core like Linux they picked the easy road (hardware emulation). If Qualcomm enters a fight with Intel, the prices will go up, and the costs will be distributed over the windows ecosystem, so more turbulence.
Good points... also looks like ARM drivers will be requited
https://www.howtogeek.com/309119/what-is-windows-10-on-arm-and-how-is-it-different-from-windows-rt/
I think it will work fine from all of the research I have done. You have to realize that you are not replacing a laptop or desktop. It is a single purpose device. Strip out all of the junk on windows by turning unneeded garbage off and it will work fine. I think it would run as well if not better than a latte panda and I have one of those working well attached to a couple of EZ-B's.
Would you ask autodesk to make their cad program an app? Of course not. ARC is a massive giant huge beast. It is NOT an app, it's a software and library suite.
We tried to use the centennial app creator for ARC last year, but it just won't work because there's too many dependencies. I don't know why Microsoft is trying to make apps like that.
Real software programs like ARC, autodesk, solidworks, visual studio, office, etc.... can't be "apps".
There is a lot of bad speculation in articles. These were all debunked multiple times by Microsoft at multiple events.
I think this is why Microsoft is building a software emulation layer and not Qualcomm. Intel doesnt have a software emulation layer that is protected.
As far as speed, that remains to be seen. Time will tell.
Realizing and exercising the strengths of their operating system should be their focus, imo. Rather than saying "hey apple and android are making money off a closed AppStore model, so should we".... what they should say is "wow, our eco system is open and our AppStore model should reflect that"
So, what I mean by that is Microsoft offering an AppStore but letting it manage REAL programs, not app containers. The app container limits the functionality of the app sooooo much that i might as well be using an iPhone or android tablet.
Aka, microsoft - don't turn a powerful PC into a phone!
How do they do that? Simple actually. Allow MSI installers to be added to the AppStore. Allow the AppStore to manage installation and removal of msi's.
Who ever thought Microsoft should copy a phone or tablet for software installation? Ugh
**EDIT**
I believe that the release of Windows 10 on ARM will be Windows 10 S.
**End of Edit**
This can be upgraded to Windows 10 Pro. Once at Pro, the restriction to apps goes away and you would be able to install programs. This is from my research a month ago. We will have to see if this is the case when and if these are released later this year or next year.
Why they upgrade to pro and not home was a mystery until now. It's because pro unlocks the virtualization features of the operating system.
Home has no virtualization.
http://www.techradar.com/news/a-closer-look-at-windows-10-s-windows-10-on-arm-and-windows-10-iot#
I'm having trouble understanding this paragraph.. It says there is one restriction, but i don't seem to see the restriction in the paragraph....
Am i reading this wrong? What's the restriction?
Good news here - because ARC is 32bit
That's why ARC cannot be an app for Windows 10 S
I think the problem is that the author did not state the restriction until the next paragraph... i.e. no x64 software
Which, as you stated, not an issue for ARC... great news
Have you tried an x86 emulator on a pi running windows? If you shut down all host OS services, I wonder how it performs
Out of the box, doesn't seem the pi kernel has any kvm optimization.