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— Edited
As in tomorrow? Fellas a little heads up on these huge announcements.. I would have flown down to see this!
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Ps, it's tues, wed, thurs
Chris
I just finished watching the IDF session, and based in what intel release i can guess some ideas:
1) Intel Realsense cameras integration with ARC.to provide navigation, and person detection, one demo idea can be a follow me robot.
2) New hardware footprint (similar to a Raspberry PI 3) to run Windows 10 and ARC.
I see a v5 EZB with a USB port.. Yay!
I see the new Intel Joule kit. Looks like the EZB and Joules will bring portable computing to our robots!
Can anyone say what size that footprint is for joule and its price tag?
When will the EZB 5 be available. Can you tell us more about its specs?
Regarding the Intel Joule platform:
I got the Yay feeling and then i got a Nay....
product sheet:
https://newsroom.intel.com/newsroom/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2016/08/intel-joule-fact-sheet.pdf
cost is $400:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Intel/GTPDKW/?qs=%2fha2pyFaduiiCJ239IsQQajAbQTa7IiAkVfmkXBNJIM%3d
For $400 you don't get any sensor (cameras).
They mentioned Linux & Windows 10 IOT (runs also in Raspberry PI 3)
the specs are good why not a full windows 10 version ?
Currently i use the Intel NUC in a big BOT, from a price perspective i don't see big save.
so far from the pictures:
it's based on Joule platform,
windows 10 IOT
i see a USB, i see the external antennas, video port....
Let's keep the fingers crossed.
Thanks
same antennas...
I guess it could be video out, but, I am sure that we will get more information before too long.
there's also the price, even for manufacturers - so that's presently a show stopper as well, as you may have seen in the media. I'm confident the price will come down and possibly make the v5 a reality. In the meantime, the /2 begins shipping very soon (I believe next month but don't quote me on that as I haven't received final updates).
The Intel and Microsoft partnership will go a long way to continue to grow ezrobot. The conference was a lot of fun, and we met some great people. It's unfortunate that ezrobots were performing more functionally than any other product being demo'd and we received the least media from Intel. And they spelt our name wrong as "easy robot" in the press releases. Which is disappointing as ez-robot's display drew the largest crowd at the show - with dancing and vision capable robots...
I'd rate the conference 6 out of 10. Specifically since Intel really dropped the ball on recognizing the major efforts and achievements ezrobot managed: 1) ezrobot having the first carrier board, 2) ezrobot having the most functional demo, 3) ezrobot having a production quality product to demo, 4) spelling our name wrong in press releases, 5) doing it all in 4 weeks
The v5 POC was a fun project for our team, but now it's back to the real world - doing what we do best
Hopefully the v5 is in development if even a year or two away. I'm looking forward to the /2 board and all the other bits as I work on Alan v2 and his girlfriend Alena. They could both use all the upgrades!
The price tag on the Joule seems a bit high, plus the heat and other issues you pointed out seems like it may be a few more years away to make them usable. On that note I have one of those PIPO computers from China for 100 bucks and its impressive what you get for the money, touch screen, small foot print and window and android os. I'll be grabbing a lot more of these.
Anyway as you said, work as usual. Do what you guys do best!
The only one we're struggling with is the inverted pendulum still. We can get it to work for small robots - but the equations for a large robot aren't compatible due to the significant difference in motors, encoders and power.
All other products should be on the website any day as well - they've all passed our production tests and now ready for the store.
If i had to guess, i'd say you'd see almost everything appear before the month of september (even the v2)
I'm just as jazzed for the V5! *eek*
is that correct idea *confused* *confused* *confused* *confused*
Diy community isn't a source of revenue, that's understood. However, it's a source of friendship and ideas and mutual technological perspectives - which makes it a valuable asset which will not be overlooked, and never has. Additionally, the diy community is education as well - you all knew very little before and now you know a lot more - ezrobot has been an educational product since day one, nothing has changed.
Any product that helps you grow and build something is an educational product - make magazine is an educational magazine. Instructables is an educational website service. Everything that teaches you is educational - calling it diy is a synonym, except calling it an educational platform actually produces sales in the industry.
So yes, the focus is still diy education - nothing has changed. Refining a product and having it actually work as committed/advertised is what matters to me and why ezrobot succeeds. Sure it may take a little more time, or you can buy an arduino and figure it out on your own - either way, ezrobot's products were always work and provide the quality that you won't find anywhere else. Which is why anyone that tries to leave, comes back...
The v5 POC is a proof of concept - sure one day something like that is the goal. Maybe sooner than later. But until it is, the v5 is POC - I can't repeat that any more without sounding like a broken record. What you all want from the v5 isn't going to make you very happy at the moment. The v5 POC takes for ever to boot up, because it's a real operating system. It uses a tremendous amount of current, and you're always going to need some form of display anyway to monitor/program/tweak/interact with the robot....
I still believe the best option is a gear best mini PC over wifi.
It's great to hear us DIY people are still a part of your concept. I've always understood why EZ Robot went the Revolution route. Gotta grow, gotta expand, gotta explore, gotta keep paying the bills. Also one of the things I've learned about you over these past years is that you're really concerned and get a kick out of teaching people and helping them to learn new things. The world is a better place because of you. I know mine is.
I know that DIY is all you mention in your above post. However it also a source of revenue. Not as large as Revolution but still a source and any income source is good. DIY guys not only buy the individual parts but I bet most of us also buy the Revolution robots also. If not for us then as gifts or learning tools. I bought a Revolution Six for a young family member who is trying to find a direction in life and whose only real interest is learning something about electronics. Who knows, maybe that little spider will save his life.
For the onboard PC - the /2 has a serial port option for direct connection. You do lose the camera port, but that's irrelevant because an onboard pc has USB for a camera anyway.
The /2 simply requires a firmware update for that feature.
There's also a mic update for the /2 and IoTiny as well that I'm working on.
Intel Robotic Kit (Preorder):
https://software.intel.com/en-us/realsense/robotic-devkit
The Kit (Cpu Board + Camera) = $249, if we remove the camera the CPU board cost is $150.
Board specs
vs
Joule Board Kit $400
I don't understand...
Two boards competing in the same space ?
Isn't the Joule Atom's replacement ?
Edit just looked it up...uses pretty much the same tech as the prime sense (discontinued) camera I used for my motion capture video. Uses TOF, projector IR
INTEL DISCONTINUES JOULE, GALILEO, AND EDISON PRODUCT LINES
http://hackaday.com/2017/06/19/intel-discontinues-joule-galileo-and-edison-product-lines/
http://www.electronicdesign.com/embedded-revolution/intel-amputate-three-modules-internet-things-including-joule
it seems small & cheap arm boards are the long term options.
Intel lost the CPU race recently to AMD, only because Intel will be late to the market. AMD isn't focusing on server application, which won't hurt Intel very much. Intel is incredibly strong in server CPU, and I don't think anyone can take that away from them.
Intel's core focus in the late 70's and early 80's was promoting hobbyist and inventors with their products. That department (MIG) is being dismantled it appears. It's a shame, because they did make pretty big bad decisions for their MIG focus. I stand by my observation that Intel dropped the ball on engaging and supporting the correct startups - plus, their infrastructure is so large that low cost products don't keep the lights on. Intel would have to streamline to operate as effective as ARM, which means significant layoffs and that would play havoc with their investors.
Other companies, such as Broadcom, ST Micro, etc. have historically only offered low cost products. So their infrastructure was built to be supported by low cost offerings. That is the opposite of Intel, who's infrastructure evolved from high cost cpu sales. This positions other chip manufacturers (Broadcom, STM) to still licence ARM and sell low cost without affecting their infrastructure. x86 isn't more expensive to manufacturer, it's the Intel's infrastructure that can't support lowing the cost of it.
This thread that you replied to is a great example. EZ-Robot was the only product ready to ship which included a Joule. We did put a great deal of effort to work with Intel to include the Joule in an EZ-Robot. Their pushback came in logistic and pricing challenges. Also, there was absolutely zero support from the Intel contacts we had. Email replies with simple requests would take 7-10 days. Even today, when we talk to Intel it can take weeks for a response. Most departments don't respond to us at all anymore.
EZ-Robot's tech is so advanced and unique, it steps on a lot of toes. Specifically for those who have made investments in less capable technologies. That doesn't mean we're going to apologize for being better.
Either way, the more these companies turn their back to EZ-Robot's direction, the more room they make for us to succeed.
Every Microsoft employee needs to re-apply for their own job every year (I think it is yearly, might even be more often). This is supposed to make people who want to stay perform at their highest level, and encourage those who don't like their jobs to move on, but in reality, it makes many of them very risk averse, and constantly looking for other opportunities. We saw the same kind of thing that DJ does. Slow, incomplete responses, and on long projects, we would have no continuity because the people we were working with would change so often.
Alan
Joule was abandoned by ez-robot in August 2016 when the pricing was announced at IDF16. FYI, there will not be any more IDF (Intel Developer Forum), as it appears Intel has ceased business practice of supporting new emerging technologies outside of server CPUs.
This is only a guess, but I'm suspecting a chip manufacturer will produce an x86 hardware emulated ARM, that will support Microsoft Windows. I can't see Microsoft getting much traction convincing software developers (new and old) to have a ARM and x86 compile. So Microsoft is most likely not going to change architecture anytime soon. However, there have been successes with chip manufacturing emulating x86: https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3011638/qualcomm-responds-to-intels-rant-about-x86-emulation-on-arm
Then if you bring up Linux and ARM... well, that's a whole new and HUGE discussion. Specific question is "How can Linux become a consumer/user OS when it is written and designed by engineers?"
You have to remember, Linux has a bizarre dual personality. 99 out of 100 installs are server based, and the minuet rest are pro-sumers dabbling at home. No Linux users are my mom, your uncle or neighbor. The fact that Linux doesn't have the expertise or community focused on consumer usage. Even if one organization stood up and said "I'll own consumer usage", it has to be built on a kabillion non-consumer technologies. It's those non-consumer technologies that breaks the Linux system for user usage. This by no means says that linux is bad, it's just differently focused.
Okay, so now you're thinking "What about NextStep?". I mean, come on DJ, Apple turned NextStep into MacOS, can't linux do the same?
Well, my previous answer still applies. Steve Jobs did not develop Next to be a server. The focus was ALWAYS software development and apps. Absorbing Next into MacOS was still a struggle, however... and ask any MacOS user that wants to install anything "abnormal" outside of Apple's desired use case. It's a nitemare!
What kind of nitemare? Well, you're not going to lose sleep over it. But my most recent experience is with MS Visual Studio and Xamarin on MacOS. There are files installed in locations outside of your usual Finder Documents, which means you're in the Terminal often to locate stuff. While it's okay for someone like me, I have friends who just can't do it.
One of my friends is a professional photographer. He's been a Mac user for ages. Recently he switched to windows because there's tools he can't get on Mac. Also, the tools he does find on Mac require editing config files and such, sound familiar? Yeah... like linux!
Well, why does Linux have so many config files and not enough GUIs? That's simple, because the development of a GUI suuuucks in Linux because developer tools are complicated and commandline in linux. Also, it's an OS made by engineers and university level programmers, who don't understand why a GUI matters.
"What do you mean you need a GUI? Just open terminal, CD into folder, VIM the file, edit it with VIM shortcut keys, :wq! to save, ensure your CHMOD permissions are set, and voila!" - says the Linux user
Why a rant about linux? It's not that i dislike linux, remember, i developed for linux for YEARS and was a huge contributed to GNU and even had a GNU.NET email address back in the day. Fact is, i'm consumer focused now, and linux just doesn't do it.
Will ARC ever run on Linux? Hopefully one day, but that's up to Linux not EZ-Robot
https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2017/P4171
6:13 to the end of the video basically.
https://www.howtogeek.com/309119/what-is-windows-10-on-arm-and-how-is-it-different-from-windows-rt/
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/12/microsofts_windows_10_armtwist_comes_closer_with_first_demonstration/
Lots of articles about it. The good news is that x86 code will run without needing a separate compiler.
I discussed this a few weeks back on the Tech Today show.
I think I read that the ARM based emulator will only support apps from the widows store, but I maybe be getting that confused with Windows 10s restrictions
@dj
Can ARC for Windows become a Windows Store App?
Frank
But, windows 10s which is aimed at schools is windows store apps only.. so no ARC on those systems unless it can become a windows store app
The emulation is a nice idea... the last company tried something like that closed doors due patent litigation's with Intel.
Intel to Qualcomm and Microsoft: Nice x86 emulation you've got there, shame if it got sued into oblivion:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/09/intel_sends_arm_a_shot_across_bow/
I'll wait to see if is not another flop... two things:
1) performance impact
2) Invisible costs. Instead of building a native ARM core like Linux they picked the easy road (hardware emulation). If Qualcomm enters a fight with Intel, the prices will go up, and the costs will be distributed over the windows ecosystem, so more turbulence.
Good points... also looks like ARM drivers will be requited
https://www.howtogeek.com/309119/what-is-windows-10-on-arm-and-how-is-it-different-from-windows-rt/
I think it will work fine from all of the research I have done. You have to realize that you are not replacing a laptop or desktop. It is a single purpose device. Strip out all of the junk on windows by turning unneeded garbage off and it will work fine. I think it would run as well if not better than a latte panda and I have one of those working well attached to a couple of EZ-B's.
Would you ask autodesk to make their cad program an app? Of course not. ARC is a massive giant huge beast. It is NOT an app, it's a software and library suite.
We tried to use the centennial app creator for ARC last year, but it just won't work because there's too many dependencies. I don't know why Microsoft is trying to make apps like that.
Real software programs like ARC, autodesk, solidworks, visual studio, office, etc.... can't be "apps".
There is a lot of bad speculation in articles. These were all debunked multiple times by Microsoft at multiple events.
I think this is why Microsoft is building a software emulation layer and not Qualcomm. Intel doesnt have a software emulation layer that is protected.
As far as speed, that remains to be seen. Time will tell.
Realizing and exercising the strengths of their operating system should be their focus, imo. Rather than saying "hey apple and android are making money off a closed AppStore model, so should we".... what they should say is "wow, our eco system is open and our AppStore model should reflect that"
So, what I mean by that is Microsoft offering an AppStore but letting it manage REAL programs, not app containers. The app container limits the functionality of the app sooooo much that i might as well be using an iPhone or android tablet.
Aka, microsoft - don't turn a powerful PC into a phone!
How do they do that? Simple actually. Allow MSI installers to be added to the AppStore. Allow the AppStore to manage installation and removal of msi's.
Who ever thought Microsoft should copy a phone or tablet for software installation? Ugh
**EDIT**
I believe that the release of Windows 10 on ARM will be Windows 10 S.
**End of Edit**
This can be upgraded to Windows 10 Pro. Once at Pro, the restriction to apps goes away and you would be able to install programs. This is from my research a month ago. We will have to see if this is the case when and if these are released later this year or next year.
Why they upgrade to pro and not home was a mystery until now. It's because pro unlocks the virtualization features of the operating system.
Home has no virtualization.
http://www.techradar.com/news/a-closer-look-at-windows-10-s-windows-10-on-arm-and-windows-10-iot#
I'm having trouble understanding this paragraph.. It says there is one restriction, but i don't seem to see the restriction in the paragraph....
Am i reading this wrong? What's the restriction?
Good news here - because ARC is 32bit
That's why ARC cannot be an app for Windows 10 S
I think the problem is that the author did not state the restriction until the next paragraph... i.e. no x64 software
Which, as you stated, not an issue for ARC... great news
Have you tried an x86 emulator on a pi running windows? If you shut down all host OS services, I wonder how it performs
Out of the box, doesn't seem the pi kernel has any kvm optimization.