ARC and Windows on Raspberry Pi 4

Very informative! 8 gigs wow, I may need to buy one. Have you tried latest ARC if it works?

I did not install Windows, I am currently running Gentoo on my Raspberry Pi 4 :D

https://github.com/sakaki-/gentoo-on-rpi-64bit

This is neat headway for the Raspberry pi hackers out there to keep themselves busy. Unfortunately, the raspberry pi 4 is about the same speed as my pentium pro from 1996. For the similar price, you can get a rock pi x or atomic pi and run a real cpu. Using any GUI on the pi 4 is insanely frustratingly slow. The Pi started off many years ago as a neat little budget $25 hobby computer for tinkerers. Today, they cost the same as a REAL single board computer with a REAL intel cpu and have a fraction of the processing speed. There's no advantage to a Pi 4 in this day of age, unless someone is unaware of the very competitive SBC's alternatives out there

But at 8 Gig Ram that is double what my Latte Panda has ,if the price is super high then not worth it anymore, I do love the speed on my 4 gig ram Panda though. I use it just as often as my desktop Pc with 8 core CPU and 8 gig ram.

Why do you think 8gb ram will help over cpu speed? CPU speed is how FAST the processor can calculate and run programs. My ARC running camera, navigation, intel realsense, lidar, and a bunch of sensors and more is taking 120mb of RAM.

The Intel cpu also is not a risc architecture like the Pi. so the intel cpu contains more instructions that OS' have been reliant on for years. Ports of x86 and amd64 code to arm has to emulate the intel cpu features. The bare throughput of the ARM seems comparable with an intel cpu until you start giving it real things to do, like run a program. ARM is low power and that's why it is great for mobile devices. The laws of thermal dynamics states there is no free energy - and processing is energy of resistance managed by transistors. The pi is just not a worth-while competitor anymore against similar priced SMBs

Also, with your latte panda or Rock Pi/X, you can run off SSD for even faster speed. Sorry but the raspberry pi is not a great computer for the price anymore.

Oh one other thing to remember is that a raspberry pi 4 is cpu made for phones ARM BCM2711 @ 1800 MHz (4 cores)

The Rock Pi X is a full-fledged desktop cpu Intel Atom x5-Z8350 @ 1920 MHz (4 cores)

They both requiring extensive cooling and USB-C power

The problem with bigger brother mini pc such as my Latte panda is when you try to start it with less Amp hour batteries,cheaper,they just do not have enough power to start up computer. While the computers with less Amp requirement will start up on discount battery power. For me to run my Panda on robot I had to buy  99 dollar rc battery 7.4 Lipo 5000 which means 5 Amp hour if I'm not mistaken. The 8.4 Nimh 3000 just could not get panda to even boot.This is why I am always looking for something with less current needed but enough Ram to run Robot apps. That said I still love the Latte Panda Arduino all in one.I do understand it is the actual CPU that is important too.

You’ll have the same experience with the pi 4 for power consumption. The pi needs a lot of juice as well

Oj wow really?! Good to avoid, thanks again DJ ,that's 3 beers my drone will have to deliver to you...Purolator courier is ridiculous now in December, I am still waiting for my Roomba Enhanced brush compartment,tracking showing In Limbo status,LOL!xD

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I guess with the rise of ARM, Microsoft will have to commit itself now to the new era!!:D This is just meant to be informative, I doubt that this setup makes sense yet!!

Aha ha ha! I forgive you  ,still was a great video, I had no idea they upgraded the Ram on those cheap devices,not so cheap now.xD

We're comparing the Pi ARM to available SBCs. The Apple M1 comparison is out of scope in this discussion. Here's why...

Cold fusion is a great video channel - i really enjoy his stuff. That episode is quite fair, as it's important to pay attention to a few details he explains. For example, on mobile devices with video editing the hardware acceleration is a designed feature for the device. It's not part of the ARM architecture, nor is the ARM cpu responsible for the performance.

On the M1, it's less about the cpu because the entire motherboard has been revised with additional hardware acceleration. It's not as if they dropped their M1 cpu onto an existing motherboard/chipset and it suddenly was a powerhouse.

Lastly, Apple (and others) are able to build off the ARM architecture (albeit with hefty licensing fees). This is why Apple has always had their own ARM cpus. There are many many more instructions and additional support for their OS extending the M1's instructions from the native ARM architecture. Comparing the M1 to the Pi's ARM is not a viable comparison because they're very different beasts.

By no means am I saying the ARM doesn't have potential - because as a foundation, it has proven to be a great cpu given that you can afford the licensing costs to build on top of their underlying design. The Pi ARM cpus do not have any custom performance enhancing features and use the standard arm architecture - and that's what we're discussing.

The Pi's ARM is not comparable to similar priced intel based SBCs that are available today. Will/could that change in future revisions of the Pi? Yes.

However, the Pi 4 is not in the same league as the available similar priced SBCs based on intel's architecture

Completely agreed on in all points!! This was just meant to be some funny/informative thread...don't try to do this at home kids!! :D

:pI almost ordered onexD now I most certainly will not!

Haha - roborad! See what you did, mickey? I should be charging more for Synthiam ARC if people are ordering Pi 4's xD

Amazon had a sale a month or so ago on pi 4's 2gb. I bought a handful of them because i put them into my hacked game consoles. But, at full price i wouldn't dare buy one now that I can get rock pi/x's or atomic pi's for around the same price. Atomic pi's are $35 CAD on amazon! How can you beat that. They are a bit larger in form factor, but they work flawless

Oh yes and that is more the price that makes sense around 35.00. I can't argue with that when you have already done the leg work in testing them all! Hope you won't get angry letter from Raspberry  Pi peeps, Ha Ha!

nah - they know the limitations of their hardware. I'm sure it'll change as there's a lot more competition now

This is my Pi 4 running Gentoo, its a nice OS and very light...I can highly recommend it!! :)

This is my atomic pi running ARC. It's Windows, a great OS. You can do a lot with it. I recommend it :D

Love it!! SBCs are so much fun right?

Although ARC gets a seat in the first row, on my desktop...dont want to cut any corners there!! love

Have you put retro pie on your pi yet?

No, not yet...might give it a try!! Sounds cool!! :)

The Gentoo advice was of course also meant to be funny, its the most painfull install ever...more like a torture test to myself!!

I just hooked that thing to my 4k screen to let it bleed a little!! :D

You'll dig retro pie. I use archive.org to find rom images of different game consoles and throw them onto the pi. I have a huge collection of consoles each with their own pi :D

i don't know much about gentoo. When I was big into linux, it was the days of slackware. Since then i use linux. I'm just not fond of the amount of maintenance effort lol. I'd rather be making robots :D

Wintel monopoly days are over. ARM uses less power and is lower cost.  Perfect for Robotics.

This is why mobile phones and other edge devices all run ARM and why ARC needs to move to Linux on ARM.

@Nink - That's a rabbit hole i don't want to go down lol. Can you imagine any of our users managing a Linux desktop? We'd be a linux support community. Oh boy, i have so much to type on that it's not even worth my brain activity right now :D. If anyone wants to use Linux as a daily driver, then ROS probably suits your needs because you have a lot more time on your hands than me lol

"Wintel" or Windows & intel cpus are absolutely not over - that's been dead headlines for years. Almost as believable as "the robots are coming!". You're referring to "phones and edge devices". Neither of which Intel or Windows is involved in. Sure, microsoft tried the phone for some reason - but with a trillion dollars in the bank, why wouldn't you try something for fun? Everyone harps on MS and Windows but we all use it. As i typed earlier in this thread - unless someone extends the ARM architecture through expensive licensing to add cpu instructions that make operating systems and applications run quickly (like APPLE has been doing for years with Ax and now M1), we won't see ARM on desktop. That's exactly why you're not reading this on a chromebook or a raspberry pi. Maybe a phone, but that's not a computer and again out of scope on this comparison.

The day you and your employer give up all intel based cpu for all ARM Devices running Linux is the day Linux is ready for a real consumer application to be written for it. :)

PS, i've tried to load a web browser on a Pi 4 before. I want my 3 minutes back lol

My daughter (and every one of her friends), who know nothing about computers and can only point and click, want a Unix BSD based OS running on a RISC computer for Christmas.

Unfortunately she can’t run ARC on it. She doesn’t know how to use windows, and it would be impossible to teach her ROS.

So how does she learn about Robotics?

She'll learn in school where they have real computers hopefully her school hasn't given up and gave them social media menu tablets to "learn with" because it quiets them up. Do your daughter a favor and get her a laptop with a keyboard and mouse. Pointing and clicking is why the next generation is in trouble with technology and why STEM is so important. She doesn't need to program... but she should know how to use a real computer. The work place is not ever going to change to a "point and click". She'll need to learn robotics on devices that are used to program robots. If you buy her a butter knife, she's not going to cut down a tree either :)

Ever see the movie Idiocracy? I worry about our future sometimes :).

But i think we're having a few different conversations in this thread.

1. We started about running Windows on a Pi.
2. Then the Pi being to low powered for Windows.
3. Then why would someone buy a slow Pi when they can be a fast SBC for the same price
4. Then why intel is still faster than native arm (i.e. Pi version, not the apple M1 extended licensed version with a ton of specific hardware acceleration)
5. Then ARC should run on a complicated Linux OS rather than an easy-to-use professional/business windows OS
6. Then kids are using "point and click" interfaces that teach them how to use social media apps rather than computing that prepares them for jobs

If you all want a linux version, we can hire a second developer to support the effort. I'll have to raise the price of the subscription for the hire, and i'll need to substitute the lack of revenue from the linux version because not enough people would use it to cover the salary.

This was a good read actually: https://www.alphr.com/features/390064/arm-vs-intel-processors-what-s-the-difference

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At this point, both ARM and Intel processors have their own benefits and drawbacks. Choosing which is better for you heavily depends on what you’d like to do with your tech devices and if they’re compatible with other hardware and software.

Intel is faster and more powerful than ARM processors. But, ARM processors are more mobile-friendly than Intel processors (in most cases).

The past two years have caused an upset for people who were diehard one or the other. Intel-based Macs will so be released with Apple’s own ARM processors, while we’ve seen some great things coming from Microsoft. Only time will tell, but there are constant improvements to both processors meaning what’s great now may not be so great in a year.

@Nink that is so cute!! It seems like recently there is a change of mind in the younger generation. Away from consumerism and big tech!! Makes me happy to hear that... My mom is also using Linux Ubuntu and never had a problem during the whole systems uptime, it comes with Thunderbird and Firefox pre installed and all the browser extentions are working!

I am using Linux mainly to play Video games, I just dual boot into my game drive to get a good framerate, which is not disturbed by all the windows stuff running in the back...

But I would not want to miss my good old daily used, tried and trusted Windows 10 for all those daily tasks, for my ARC and my Fusion 360!! :)

@DJSures I love Idiocracy, such a great movie!! And thanks for the link, very informative...also I think the discussion here is a good one, nice thing you summed up the conversational flow of topics!

My intend when starting the post was the following info, that your article is also pointing out!

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In 2019, things changed with the release of the Surface Pro X. Although the chassis of the tablet didn’t change much from previous versions, Microsoft didn’t give up on the ARM processor. The Surface Pro X is the tablet with an ARM processor that runs full Windows rather than a watered-down version.

Surface Pro X  starts at $999.99  or 1,000.00

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-pro-x/8QG3BMRHNWHK?s_kwcid=AL!4249!10!79302399292901!79302619849525&OCID=AID2100839_SEM_82e16f3f9b0f1f54394030ececbedbfc%3aG%3as&ef_id=82e16f3f9b0f1f54394030ececbedbfc%3aG%3as&msclkid=82e16f3f9b0f1f54394030ececbedbfc&activetab=pivot%3aoverviewtab

@mickey666maus What my daughter wants is the latest MacBook but I worded it in such a way that even though it’s really Unix on ARM the Gen Z don’t care as long as it is fast and easy to use.

linux mint and zoron (based on Ubuntu) are very user friendly and today you can get ubuntu pre installed on Dell, Lenovo and other popular computers.

If the Nvidia/  ARM acquisition is successful (and at $40B I suspect it will be) the future of high end desktops and laptops will all be based on ARM and I am willing to bet the next Gen XBOX/PS6, Cloud and even Apple game console will be ARM as well.

I believe all the scenarios are open and the eventually what yesterday was good tomorrow is not.

Microsoft: Steve Balmer bashed the first iPhone and today is a top choice. I remember going to Microsoft dev events where the main joke was the Linux world, and today Windows has the Linux subsystem.

A few Microsoft evangelists asked the question: who needs SSH and command prompt ? when we have windows and mouse ? Today I have projects deployed on the cloud on a windows server without GUI and SSH and Powershell scripts are the best in town.

Azure has more Linux servers than windows servers. Microsoft SQL server is available on Linux, Microsoft Office is available on Apple.

Intel: I don't see their roadmap for the "small" world, they shutdown all the embedded platforms. LattePanda, UpBoard, AtomicPI, RockPI all of them use the same old architecture Cherry Trail (Atom) Released in 2015 Q2 for the tablets (deprecated), almost 6 years later there is nothing new.

I have two Atomic PIs (bargain prices) I don't plan to invest more money on a Cherry Trail, instead I've invested in few Intel NUCs and use them in my big designs.

Apple: I've 3 kids: elementary, middle and high school, all of them have MacBook laptops assigned by the school district. That choice will shape their future decisions. I've introduced them to Windows, and all of them have Raspberry PIs mini desk computers, but, as expected their top choice is the Apple ecosystem.

I believe everyone is biased and "brainwashed" during their live.

I got familiar with Minix, *nix and Linux in college, my first job introduced me to DOS, Windows 3.1 and Novell networks.  Novell lead me to Oracle, Sun systems (unix) and Java language the multi platform promise. From all the development paths the one I recall as something special was the NeXTSTEP: it was very far ahead of time. I did some objective-C code, at the time nobody expected objective-c and Cocoa to rule the Apple development, likewise Java guys trashed Microsoft .NET because was not a multi-platform and today .NET runs on Intel, Arm platforms.

@DJ ...Idiocracy was such a great movie seen it about 5 times now!

ptp hammered the last nail. Things were, things are, things will be... because things change, change takes time, and change is unpredictable.

I guess I should stop complaining and buy an SBC. I have an NUC but it is 19v and fans spin when idle just running windows so not ideal to run off battery.

Anyone know where  you can buy a ROCK PI X (I Guess model B 4GB/32GB) in Canada. Cheapest I can find is $138 CAD from China.  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001664720545.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.5eb33c00D8SymT&mp=1

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I have an NUC but it is 19v

@Nink Seeed Studio, but it seems that they are out of stock of the custom heat sink: https://www.seeedstudio.com/Rock-Pi-X-Model-B-4GB-p-4277.html

*Edit Note that you'll also need a 2.4GHz Antenna with u.fl connector for the WiFi, the onboard chip antenna is garbage for reception.

@Nink, you want the fan no matter what OS because thermal monitoring will limit the cpu frequency. Also, the fan takes very very little juice. Oh my ohmnilab telepresence robot, it has a fan and runs all day with an Up Board in Windows at 50% cpu utilization processing navigation and telepresence features. The best investment you can get for a battery powered robot is a watt monitor.

I use these: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Professional-DC-60V-100A-Balance-Voltage-Battery-Power-Analyzer-RC-Watt-Mete/284093591041?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200520130048%26meid%3D34bbc6ec2eb84b8894a2ee2c454abd41%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D7%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dco%26sd%3D164368654750%26itm%3D284093591041%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithDarwoV3BBEV2b%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

Oh, and i should add that it doesn't need to be connected at all times. Just use it when calculating your power consumption.

It'll show how many amps the whole robot is drawing. And then you can do quick math on your battery to identify estimated time remaining.

Also, good idea to throw a voltage divider on the battery positive wire. And connect that to your ADC of the robot controller to monitor the battery voltage in ARC. You can use the "shutdown" command in ARC to shut'r down.