atomizer
USA
Asked
— Edited
hi all!
my project goal is for a surface ROV controlled by a PC
i would like to have bi-directional audio and video from the bot to the PC (kind of like tele-presense i suppose). i want the a/v and control to flow over a single WiFi link and am wondering if that's possible with the ez-board?
i would also like to run the WiFi in AP mode with an internal web-server so that anyone can connect to the video stream
i've been involved in ground and aerial robotics and hobby RC for a long time, but my weakness is in programming (all i know is AutoIt and simple batch scripting), and so EZ is looking like a mighty attractive platform, especially with its compatibility with other products, such as Arduino, leaving me room (i hope) to expand later
And robots? Robots are in an even worse shape. Ever stop and look around at the big players in DIY robotics, and notice their technology is 15-20 years old? Companies like Parallax have been selling the same product for 15+ years. Can you imagine using a 15 year old computer?
so i'm trying to understand the most important part to me atm - the video
i had planned on a wired camera anyway, so no issues there. so with the camera, apparently the concerns are processing power and bandwidth, keeping in mind i would like to, if possible, run both video and control over a single WiFi link...
1) what is about the camera that requires so much processing power and can any of that work be off-loaded - are there camera that can do the bulk of the work with their own hardware? is that inherently what a network (IP) camera does? in other words, can i skirt around having to embed an SBC on the bot by using a particular type of wired camera?
2) using the right camera, is it now possible to do bot control and video over a single WiFi link? it seems to me that control data out and trivial sensor data in return, such as polling a temp sensor every 1000 ms, would consume only the tiniest bit of available bandwidth over an 802.11 b/g connection. am i missing something here?
3) i'm wanting WiFi for a few reasons; i'm imagining running a web server on the bot that anyone can connect to with a browser to view the video stream. however, that is not the way it works, is it? instead, they would have to connect to the PC (me) where the ARC s/w is located, correct?
4) i'm assuming i can get better range with WiFi than BT. is that correct? i have some knowledge of antennas and i basically know how to greatly increase range without using more power, so the protocol i guess really doesn't matter - i'm just curious as to why WiFi is supposed to go further.
5) just curious as to why EZ uses BT instead of WiFi - was this to overcome some limitation?
6) looks like the software cannot be used for commercial purposes according to the TOS. so one wanted to do, say, tank inspections, that's a no-go?
linux is better bec, it uses less resource than windows also we don't need a gui in robots
so linux is the best option to embeded computing
also on 3) in post #2 beagle bone is very powerfull
1) impossible
2) yes,if dj released a linux version you could but a beagle bone in your robot and make connect to other people throught making it act like a router to make an internet connection
3) answered in 2)
4) yes
5) bec, BT is easier to setup
6) no
I trimmed this down from a much bigger post but the above sentence said it all as far as I can see.
looks like the hardware limitations and TOS is going to cause me to look elsewhere
If you are looking for a graphical Linux Robot environment, there isn't one.
As for including an embedded computer within your robot, it is being done by hundreds of EZ-Robot users. It's very easy, all you need is:
1) A Fit-PC, NetBook, or Mini ATX
2) EZ-B
3) Your servos, sensors, battery, etc.
You can connect to the Fit-PC/Netbook/Mini ATX using a WIFI connection and Remote Desktop. There are hundreds of EZ-Robot users doing the same thing. If you look at all robots on the internet that are advanced in the many thousand dollar range, they use embedded PC's - most use Fit-PC's... But I recommend using a NetBook because they are very affordable.
For example, a AMD-C50 processor driven netbook can cost only $200
however, for me, the downside for my current project is the video and control over WiFi limitation and the licensing - DJ encourages others to FOSS their code, yet the EZ code is proprietary and apparently not for use in commercial applications, which kind of leaves me shaking my head
i want linux ez_builder and it will contain the"ez"part
@atomizer, modified ARC and EZ-B is used in a few commercial applications. We have licensed the platform to commercial applications... I'm not sure where you received that conflicting information.
I do encourage open source application hobby projects. If you want to pay for food and have a roof over your head, it's recommended to not open source your commercial code :). As for proprietary, I would like to introduce you to EZ-SDK... EZ-SDK is an entire open framework - which means Yes, you don't get to see the code, however you do have access to every single function/procedure/variable in the entire EZ-Robot platform.
Also, I should add that any "hackers" out there can actually import ARC into their own custom C#/VB application. ARC is also built with PUBLIC functions - meaning nothing is hidden
You should be careful before accusing me of wrongfully closed sourcing EZ-Robot
Why don't we release the code? Well, why would you want it? If you have access to every single function - including the raw video stream - there is no reason you'd need the code, unless you were curious or wanted to steal it for your own commercial application
Feels good with so many people demanding I give them the code for the EZ-Robot platform... Means I've created something awesome!
For a release log to see how aggressive our development is, spend less than an hour to browse this: http://www.ez-robot.com/Community/Forum/threads.aspx?id=3
However, no matter how much work I put into EZ-Robot.. how many hours I work on it... How many hours of sleep I miss out on... It all is put toward a free software package that lets you build a robot. And that is why we do it
EZ-Robot is changing that
I didn't design EZ-Robot for hackers or Linux users; I designed EZ-Robot for everybody else.
As for the video over wifi. I don't know how else to explain this. In your robot you will put the two pieces of hardware:
1) Netbook/Fit-PC/Mini ATX
2) EZ-B
This setup would be the same on any platform. You would require an I/O controller (i.e. EZ-B) and a computer. The computer is what does the advanced processing of video, speech, etc..
You can connect to the robot's computer over wifi. When you do so, you have access to the video, ARC Interface, etc..
EZ-Robot is the easiest way to do it over any other hardware you may be considering. Maybe it's so easy that it isn't making sense?
I don't want you to use another hardware platform. I put my passion into this platform, and I know you won't be happy with any other option. I take the time, from the hundreds of emails I receive in a day, to answer you and the community with honesty.
I solve problems, it's what I do best. Build an EZ-robot and you'll see
i simply stated a fact, and i didn't suggest you open source EZ - i fully understand that as long as we submit to being enslaved by banksters, we are all in a sinking boat. in a better world we wouldn't have a ridiculously childish monetary system where we pretend that paper and bits actually have value and you might be doing what you love to do for free, without any stress and sleepless nights and deadlines, just because you love to do it. however we obviously haven't reached that point... yet
i appreciate your enthusiasm and dedication to this project and community and, from what i see, it looks like everyone else does as well. you should be proud
as for me, i don't like limitations, and the licensing issue is a limitation - so is being stuck to windows since i don't know what i might want to do down the road. sure i can license it for commercial use, but that would obviously involve a licensing fee
as for the video/data across WiFi, i understand what you're saying. i just don't want to have to run 2 Tx/Rx to do it and then deal with possibly decreased range, crappy signal and multi-path issues. ground bots are already starting out with a strike against them because you can't really get the antennas working properly - different story if you're in the air
so, when i consider the following, EZ isn't going to fit the bill, at least not on this project...
* cost - in addition to the EZ, i'd need to run an SBC
* having to run 2 WiFi's
* tied to windows, at least partially
* licensing cost, if i did go commercial
* whatever limits i might run into now or, worse, down the road because of proprietary software
i'm not really knocking you for these things, these are just things that i'd be stupid NOT to consider, wouldn't you agree?
At the end of the day, the EZ-Robots hardware and software is aimed at a specific market, a different market to what all other robotics hardware and software is aimed at. It's aimed at those who don't have the programming skills to create a realistic robot from micro-controllers.
EZ-Robots, as is aptly named, is for easy robots. It's easy. Very easy. Plug in servos and sensors, connect to PC via Bluetooth (or optional wifi, usb or wired Ethernet) and use the extremely simple yet very powerful software to bring it all alive.
Yes it needs Windows but it's aimed at a market where there is a Windows PC usually lying around, if not a few or better still, an old one stored away.
As for licensing for commercial use, I'm still surprised it's not licensed for all use. It's free software that is regularly updated. People pay a lot more for lesser software. But the main thing is, can you really expect someone, anyone, to release open source, free software for commercial use? It would be foolish.
i think, overall, it happens to be a very cool package that, assuming it lives up to the claims (and i have no reason to suspect otherwise), is a very reasonably priced package, but no part of it is technically free
For commercial use however, like practically every piece of "free" software that I've ever read the license for, perfectly justifies a licensing fee. Would you like someone else to profit from your hard work without receiving your cut?
also see http://opensource.org/faq#commercial
again, i am not suggesting that DJ change course and open-source the code - i was simply stating facts: it isn't open source and it would be a mistake to consider builder or the SDK as free, as both are useless without the board
i am not arguing whether a licensing fee is justified or not - that is totally up to the developer - it simply doesn't sit well with me personally, and my personal view is being incorrectly misinterpreted
as far as profiting from the hard work of others, i'm sure you're well aware that that is exactly what most of the *nix community (and many, many others) allow you to do. while you may think that's a stupid idea, keep in mind your computing experience would still be in the stone age if it weren't for people who make their source code available for free, regardless of whether you use it or not. you can profit from their many hundreds of thousands/millions of hours of work for which they charged nothing in many cases. even as a developer you can publish your source code and still profit by charging for installations, support contracts, hardware, etc.
Fact is, if you want to use the EZB in a commercial application you are going to have to pay EZ-Robots for the privilege. If you don't like it then you have two choices, use something else (which will be a lot less sophisticated) or write your own software, put in the hours yourself and attempt to turn that in to a worthwhile profit.
What industry would you expect a manufacturer to give away anything for free so you can profit from it? I can't think of a single one.